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That's what the magazines are saying, but where did they get the info? My owners manual only shows reference to 87 octane. And on the new 5.0 mustang, they clearly call out premium is required for 412 HP rating... So you'd think they would need to do something like that on the 6.2 if that were the case...

Anyway, that's why I have bumped this thread. Seems like one magazine quoted a 10 HP drop on 87 and everyone else jumped on it since I haven't seen any literature from Ford saying premium is required for the 411 HP...
 
The common misconception is that the higher the octane rating, the more horsepower produced from the fuel. Octane rating is simply the fuel's resistance to premature detonation upon compression in the cylinder.

Motors requiring higher octane fuel get their horsepower from a higher compression ratio and closer timing tolerance - close enough that the less stable 87 octane fuel will tend to light-off before the the piston stroke passes top-dead-center... This usually ends up with the the piston trying to go backward rather than forward - which is very inefficient (and sorta detrimental to the drive train :^D )

This is why "octane-boost" additives work with cheap gas... You aren't adding any magic "go-fast" to the fuel - you're actually calming the cheap fuel down a bit so the engine can operate effectively... the gain in horsepower coming from all cylinders firing forward rather than fighting the occasional backward-fire "ping".

It's probably also a good time to note that 87 octane gasoline is *not* labeled "premium" for a reason - premium fuel has additional detergents to keep your engine clean - which translates to a happier Raptor over a longer period of time.

So - it all boils down to how you use it and price-point...

If all you do is commute/tool around town - 87 with an occasional tank or two of premium to 'clean the pipes" will probably do you fine. But if you can afford the extra $0.10 a gallon per octane hop (in my neck of the woods), and/or regularly run under increased load (hills, hauling, romping) - the $2.60 or $5.20 investment per tankful would be worth it...
Man, great explanation. Thanks! Now if we could just answer the HP question. <G> Rep point your way..

Red
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Motortrend also referenced it in their article as well and I thought PUTC verifed it on the dyno? But I did read it elswhere that there is a 10hp drop on 87oct.
 
Power ratings with Regular and Premium

401 hp is with regular gasoline
411 hp is with premium gasoline

The engine will run wonderfully on either fuel, without knocking (due to dual knock sensors, and adaptive knock control algorithms) but makes most power on premium.

Don't run E85. The fuel delivery module in the tank is incompatible with this type of fuel, and does not have the flow capacity (you need a higher fuel flow because of the lower energy content) so you will run the engine lean and could potentially burn a hole in the piston.
 
Hmm. That's what I keep hearing. Wonder why there is nothing in the owners manual about using Premium for max horsepower? Seems like a huge oversight if it is true...

P.S. I've heard light pinging while running 87 under heavy throttle up a hill... so, the timing must be getting retarded. So that lends some credibility that premium will allow the timing to remain/advance...
 
The common misconception is that the higher the octane rating, the more horsepower produced from the fuel. Octane rating is simply the fuel's resistance to premature detonation upon compression in the cylinder.

Motors requiring higher octane fuel get their horsepower from a higher compression ratio and closer timing tolerance - close enough that the less stable 87 octane fuel will tend to light-off before the the piston stroke passes top-dead-center... This usually ends up with the the piston trying to go backward rather than forward - which is very inefficient (and sorta detrimental to the drive train :^D )

This is why "octane-boost" additives work with cheap gas... You aren't adding any magic "go-fast" to the fuel - you're actually calming the cheap fuel down a bit so the engine can operate effectively... the gain in horsepower coming from all cylinders firing forward rather than fighting the occasional backward-fire "ping".

It's probably also a good time to note that 87 octane gasoline is *not* labeled "premium" for a reason - premium fuel has additional detergents to keep your engine clean - which translates to a happier Raptor over a longer period of time.

So - it all boils down to how you use it and price-point...

If all you do is commute/tool around town - 87 with an occasional tank or two of premium to 'clean the pipes" will probably do you fine. But if you can afford the extra $0.10 a gallon per octane hop (in my neck of the woods), and/or regularly run under increased load (hills, hauling, romping) - the $2.60 or $5.20 investment per tankful would be worth it...
Close, but no. To take on a few other posts too...

Actually, it is the measure of resistance to detonation, but detonation happens after the plug has been fired and ATDC.

Pre ignition happens BTDC (and has a really good chance of instantly toasting your motor) and is an explosion. Light pinging going up a hill is not pre ignition. The ping/knock of detonation is the sound of 2 seperate flame fronts meeting in the combustion chamber. Harmful, but no death sentence.

Octane is a measure of resistance to detonation. That's it. It doesn't automatically mean more power, more energy, more MPG, more detergents, or even faster/slower burning. There are multiple paths/additives to go about increasing octane and they all bring different possible characteristics with them. Different companies use different formulations that can also change with the seasons and region.

It means you can advance the timing a bit and have the combustion happen closer to TDC and therefore under higher pressure. Similar to an increased compression ratio, this will provide better MPG and power (to a point).

In older/lower performance motors, you may see an increase in power, MPG etc. switching to a higher octane fuel...but you may see nothing change or a decrease. It will be because of other aspects of the fuel though, whatever they may be, likely not the octane rating itself so much. Maybe your motor like a bit slower/faster burn. Maybe it likes having a slightly oxygenated fuel or perhaps it can do a decent job with a higher energy content.

It's a measure of resistance to lighting off before we want it to. We know it will light off from the spark and that the flame front will keep it going. What we want to know is if the fuel mixture on the other side/different area of the combustion chamber is stable enough to not light off from the growing pressure caused by the intended combustion starting point. The pressure increase travels faster than the flame front itself. We want it to wait until the spreading flame front reaches it for it to combust. If it does light off from the pressure, we will have two flame fronts and hear a ping when they collide.

A ping means we had a sudden increase in pressure and not a smooth burn. It will slowly fatigue metal and bearings.

Higher octane is called 'Premium','Super" or whatever because that's what the marketing team started calling it. It is designed to play to your emotions and guarantees nothing outside being correlated with the octane rating. Some brands may, or did at one point. use more detergents in Premium, it is, however, not to be expected unless otherwise stated.
 
Close, but no. To take on a few other posts too...

Actually, it is the measure of resistance to detonation, but detonation happens after the plug has been fired and ATDC.

Pre ignition happens BTDC (and has a really good chance of instantly toasting your motor) and is an explosion. Light pinging going up a hill is not pre ignition. The ping/knock of detonation is the sound of 2 seperate flame fronts meeting in the combustion chamber. Harmful, but no death sentence.

Octane is a measure of resistance to detonation. That's it. It doesn't automatically mean more power, more energy, more MPG, more detergents, or even faster/slower burning. There are multiple paths/additives to go about increasing octane and they all bring different possible characteristics with them. Different companies use different formulations that can also change with the seasons and region.

It means you can advance the timing a bit and have the combustion happen closer to TDC and therefore under higher pressure. Similar to an increased compression ratio, this will provide better MPG and power (to a point).

In older/lower performance motors, you may see an increase in power, MPG etc. switching to a higher octane fuel...but you may see nothing change or a decrease. It will be because of other aspects of the fuel though, whatever they may be, likely not the octane rating itself so much. Maybe your motor like a bit slower/faster burn. Maybe it likes having a slightly oxygenated fuel or perhaps it can do a decent job with a higher energy content.

It's a measure of resistance to lighting off before we want it to. We know it will light off from the spark and that the flame front will keep it going. What we want to know is if the fuel mixture on the other side/different area of the combustion chamber is stable enough to not light off from the growing pressure caused by the intended combustion starting point. The pressure increase travels faster than the flame front itself. We want it to wait until the spreading flame front reaches it for it to combust. If it does light off from the pressure, we will have two flame fronts and hear a ping when they collide.

A ping means we had a sudden increase in pressure and not a smooth burn. It will slowly fatigue metal and bearings.

Higher octane is called 'Premium','Super" or whatever because that's what the marketing team started calling it. It is designed to play to your emotions and guarantees nothing outside being correlated with the octane rating. Some brands may, or did at one point. use more detergents in Premium, it is, however, not to be expected unless otherwise stated.
Great explanation of a complex issue TD. I also liked how you didn't have an attitude, just clearly stated your points. Speaking of points, a rep point goes to you for your efforts.

I have a request for clarification from you, or anyone else that has an input. A little background first...

My Brother in law is a farmer in Missouri... He is a very sharp guy - a college educated, 5th generation farmer who farms in excess of 2,500 acres. He was instrumental in the building of an Ethanol plant in his small town, and his sons both work in ethanol plants, one local and one in Iowa. Had dinner at his house last night and I brought up this discussion with him. It was interesting to note that he said basically the exact same thing that you did in this post.

My question is this: what is the process that the 6.2L motor uses to extract more HP from the higher octane? As you stated and I agree with... Octane rating is nothing more than a measurement of resistance to pre-ignition. Higher numbers mean a lower flash point... meaning that you can use higher compression without HP robbing BTDC detonation.

So how does the 6.2 accomplish this in the same motor? I know that the engine uses variable cam timing, which I believe is an actual physical, computer controlled adjustment. How can that change the equation to get more compression/HP?

Image



Does the dual spark plug/flame front have an effect that can and is adjusted on the fly? What else is involved?

Image


The standard octane discussion involves 2 different motors. "I can run this high compression motor on 87 octane, but it knocks like crazy! My wifes car doesn't knock on it" and so on. It seems that somehow, Ford has developed a motor technology that allows the computer to adjust the motor over a range of compression ratios. Anybody know how?

Red
 
No expert here, but this is what I believe is happening:

You're definitely not changing the compression ratios. That's fixed based on the components/geometry of a particular engine. Typically a 91 octane tune to an engine that will run on 87 involves advancing the timing to get a more efficient burn and therefore more power. That's what a lot of the tuners do out there for gas engines. 91 octane allows you to advance the timing without getting pre-ignition.

On an engine that has a high compression ratio (~10.5:1) that is tuned for 91 octane, like the V8 in my Audi S4, for example, if you try to run on 87, it will ping and then retard the timing. Some engines without knock sensors, like the old Land Rover V-8's, had to run on 91 octane period since it had no way to know to retard the timing and they would knock like crazy and probably would damage the engine...

James
 
Right, it's not a higher compression. We'll just call it closer to TDC. The "higher compression" comparison was just that. I think this is understood though.

All speculation:

As far as the 6.2 and reduced HP when running 87, I assume it is controlled through ignition timing adjustments almost exclusively. I really don't know, though. The variable cams should have more to do with RPM range, but it may change with vacuum/throttle %/load too.

I can see the 6.2 having a powerful/quick enough computer to adjust ignition timing to where the low end remains the same between 87/91 octane and with 87 is only retarding at higher RPMs. If this is the case, mileage should be fairly consistent between grades of gas with everyday driving.

Twin plugs and flame fronts. I don't know. In what I've known about previous uses of twin plugs, it was mostly for emissions. The 2nd plug isn't fired until well after the first. The second spark was to ignite any lingering mixture. As I said, this engine is pretty advanced, there are new technologies and applications that I don't know about yet. Maybe they've found how to fire them at the same time? Maybe it's mostly for emissions and fired later here too?
 
Right, it's not a higher compression. We'll just call it closer to TDC. The "higher compression" comparison was just that. I think this is understood though.

All speculation:

As far as the 6.2 and reduced HP when running 87, I assume it is controlled through ignition timing adjustments almost exclusively. I really don't know, though. The variable cams should have more to do with RPM range, but it may change with vacuum/throttle %/load too.

I can see the 6.2 having a powerful/quick enough computer to adjust ignition timing to where the low end remains the same between 87/91 octane and with 87 is only retarding at higher RPMs. If this is the case, mileage should be fairly consistent between grades of gas with everyday driving.

Twin plugs and flame fronts. I don't know. In what I've known about previous uses of twin plugs, it was mostly for emissions. The 2nd plug isn't fired until well after the first. The second spark was to ignite any lingering mixture. As I said, this engine is pretty advanced, there are new technologies and applications that I don't know about yet. Maybe they've found how to fire them at the same time? Maybe it's mostly for emissions and fired later here too?

All I know is, I am still getting 9.5 city, 13 HW....
Slightly better with 92.
 
Right, it's not a higher compression. We'll just call it closer to TDC. The "higher compression" comparison was just that. I think this is understood though.

All speculation:

As far as the 6.2 and reduced HP when running 87, I assume it is controlled through ignition timing adjustments almost exclusively. I really don't know, though. The variable cams should have more to do with RPM range, but it may change with vacuum/throttle %/load too.

I can see the 6.2 having a powerful/quick enough computer to adjust ignition timing to where the low end remains the same between 87/91 octane and with 87 is only retarding at higher RPMs. If this is the case, mileage should be fairly consistent between grades of gas with everyday driving.

Twin plugs and flame fronts. I don't know. In what I've known about previous uses of twin plugs, it was mostly for emissions. The 2nd plug isn't fired until well after the first. The second spark was to ignite any lingering mixture. As I said, this engine is pretty advanced, there are new technologies and applications that I don't know about yet. Maybe they've found how to fire them at the same time? Maybe it's mostly for emissions and fired later here too?

I guess the simplest way to put it is... with the higher octane fuel the motor spends less time thinking about how to run better, and more time just doing it.
 
All I know is, I am still getting 9.5 city, 13 HW....
Slightly better with 92.


HAHAHA - yep... I actually hit 16 with 89 over a 45-mile mixed run (according to the truck)... but I had my wife and mother in-law along for the ride. Dang if the mileage doesn't go down when she's not around :^D
 
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